[Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

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[Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

David Arnold - El Alemán
Regarded Contributers

*** this is a copy of a post to openupgrade mailing list - asking for your two cents ***

im still in the erly iterations of the hermeneutic cycle (it's not a curve, it's cycles!), but once I will have reached the level, you can be sure, I will remember the laws of reciprocity and make myself contributer to the openupgrate project.

This being said, you have an rough idea about where I am in the life cycle:
As a very curious person, I'm constantly exploring almost every aspect, with an open mind and no conventions already marked into my brain. So the following might be sensible or not to you, but I wanted to ask you to give it a short assessment.

About Pentaho Kettle, I read here that it has a graphical tool for ETL and can be used to update a database. This sounds for me like a hot canditate for OpenUpgrade, especially to improve usability and stuff (and probably conquest back community leadership in the realm upgrading, something that to zikzakmedia, nantic, etc. would probably please..:).

So let mi depcit a vision, and let's see, if you might share:

I imagine a VM (probably even using vagrant boxes or docker) that has a ready configured data migration server, where you can easily manipulate ETL and stuff with a kind of integration of pantaho kettle and OpenUpgrade-logic, maintained and alimented with best practices from github, making it easy easy easy to set up and share migration pipelines for modules.

My general mission, I feel myself dedicated to within the community, is usability and tearing down hurdles and inconveniences. Such proposal would perfectly fit. I think people are just inherently lazy, so if we could maximze convenience we could maximize contribution and therefore probably momentum and quality of the whole project.

What do you think about htis idea/visioin? What can I personally do to help make this reality?

Thanks for your two cents, if we sum them up properly, it might yield to somewhat bigger amounts by some magnitude.. ;)

Freundliche Grüsse

​​

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​El Alemán S.A.S, Carrera 13 # 93 - 40 P4, Bogotá D.C, Colombia

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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Stefan Rijnhart (Therp)
On 29-05-14 14:49, David Arnold - El Alemán wrote:
Regarded Contributers

*** this is a copy of a post to openupgrade mailing list - asking for your two cents ***


FYI I advised David to take this to a broader audience, because switching to a graphical tool (with all its merits) is not in scope for OpenUpgrade. So please don't consider this a cross post in spite of the line above.

Cheers,
Stefan


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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Daniel Reis (SECURITAS SA)-3
In reply to this post by David Arnold - El Alemán
David,

I've been using Pentaho Kettle with OpenERP for a few years now, so I'm
quite comfortable with what you can do with it.

> About Pentaho Kettle, I read HERE[1] that it has a GRAPHICAL TOOL  
> FOR ETL and can be used to update a database. This sounds for me  
> like a hot canditate for OpenUpgrade, especially to improve  
> usability and stuff

Since it's a graphical tool you can get the impression that it's "easier".
But as soon as you get to do more complex or extensive data handling, a GUI
starts being more a hurdle than a help.
And the transformations you design are not simpler nor more readable
compared to scripted code.


> I imagine a VM (probably even using vagrant boxes or docker) that  
> has a ready configured data migration server, where you can easily  
> manipulate ETL and stuff WITH A KIND OF INTEGRATION OF PANTAHO  
> KETTLE AND OPENUPGRADE-LOGIC, maintained and alimented with best  
> practices from github, making it easy easy easy to set up and share  
> migration pipelines for modules.

I think Kettle is an excellent tool than can aid you in a lot of data
integration tasks.
But I honestly don't think it would do a good task at OpenERP version upgrade.

For a "black box" upgrade you want to run a command on your server and  
let it do the magic for you.
That's a perfect job for scripts. And that's what OpenUpgrade is all about:
provide migration scripts for OpenERP modules.


> My general mission, I feel myself dedicated to within the community,  
> is usability and tearing down hurdles and inconveniences. Such  
> proposal would perfectly fit. I think people are just inherently  
> lazy, so if we could maximze convenience we could maximize  
> contribution and therefore probably momentum and quality of the  
> whole project.

As I mentioned before, I don't think Kettle would be a good choice here.
My suggestions on how you could contribute are:

* Write a good tutorial text to help people start with OpenUpgrade.
* Eventually, write a GUI program to wrap around the OpenUpgrade  
scripts, like what some programs do for bzr or git.


Keep up the enthusiasm and hope to see nice things from you soon :)

/DR


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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Peter Langenberg
+1 Daniel


2014-05-30 10:00 GMT+02:00 Daniel Reis <[hidden email]>:
David,

I've been using Pentaho Kettle with OpenERP for a few years now, so I'm
quite comfortable with what you can do with it.

About Pentaho Kettle, I read HERE[1] that it has a GRAPHICAL TOOL FOR ETL and can be used to update a database. This sounds for me like a hot canditate for OpenUpgrade, especially to improve usability and stuff

Since it's a graphical tool you can get the impression that it's "easier".
But as soon as you get to do more complex or extensive data handling, a GUI
starts being more a hurdle than a help.
And the transformations you design are not simpler nor more readable
compared to scripted code.


I imagine a VM (probably even using vagrant boxes or docker) that has a ready configured data migration server, where you can easily manipulate ETL and stuff WITH A KIND OF INTEGRATION OF PANTAHO KETTLE AND OPENUPGRADE-LOGIC, maintained and alimented with best practices from github, making it easy easy easy to set up and share migration pipelines for modules.

I think Kettle is an excellent tool than can aid you in a lot of data
integration tasks.
But I honestly don't think it would do a good task at OpenERP version upgrade.

For a "black box" upgrade you want to run a command on your server and let it do the magic for you.
That's a perfect job for scripts. And that's what OpenUpgrade is all about:
provide migration scripts for OpenERP modules.



My general mission, I feel myself dedicated to within the community, is usability and tearing down hurdles and inconveniences. Such proposal would perfectly fit. I think people are just inherently lazy, so if we could maximze convenience we could maximize contribution and therefore probably momentum and quality of the whole project.

As I mentioned before, I don't think Kettle would be a good choice here.
My suggestions on how you could contribute are:

* Write a good tutorial text to help people start with OpenUpgrade.
* Eventually, write a GUI program to wrap around the OpenUpgrade scripts, like what some programs do for bzr or git.


Keep up the enthusiasm and hope to see nice things from you soon :)

/DR


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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Florent THOMAS-2
Hy Folks,

I'm using all the pentaho stuff with openerp :
- Pentaho Reports for OpenERP
- Pentaho Kettle for data integration

I've recently merged 4 companies coming from 4 different databases with no id export into a single openerp database with multi company environment.
I precise also that Kettle could also be launch through CLI. I design with the UI and deploy it on my server and launch it with cron.
I also precise that Kettle could launch any script even python, access to the openerp API thanks to the awesome project : https://github.com/DeBortoliWines/openerp-java-api

Frequently my coworkers are wanting to create kettle export instead of coding python. I always refuse this for many reasons :
- The closer you are from the core the better you are to debug
- The lower number of tools your working with the mighter your are when you're working on it
- The lower number of workflows you have to manage, the easier to disgest is your spaghetti dish !
- The "new fun" tool is not always the answer
- A UI oftently hide the complexity of a task

So maybe kettle could be a great help for cleaning datas before upgrading but I don't think that would be a great idea to use it for OpenUpgrade as a single answer.

Regards



Le 30/05/2014 10:45, Peter Langenberg a écrit :
+1 Daniel


2014-05-30 10:00 GMT+02:00 Daniel Reis <[hidden email]>:
David,

I've been using Pentaho Kettle with OpenERP for a few years now, so I'm
quite comfortable with what you can do with it.

About Pentaho Kettle, I read HERE[1] that it has a GRAPHICAL TOOL FOR ETL and can be used to update a database. This sounds for me like a hot canditate for OpenUpgrade, especially to improve usability and stuff

Since it's a graphical tool you can get the impression that it's "easier".
But as soon as you get to do more complex or extensive data handling, a GUI
starts being more a hurdle than a help.
And the transformations you design are not simpler nor more readable
compared to scripted code.


I imagine a VM (probably even using vagrant boxes or docker) that has a ready configured data migration server, where you can easily manipulate ETL and stuff WITH A KIND OF INTEGRATION OF PANTAHO KETTLE AND OPENUPGRADE-LOGIC, maintained and alimented with best practices from github, making it easy easy easy to set up and share migration pipelines for modules.

I think Kettle is an excellent tool than can aid you in a lot of data
integration tasks.
But I honestly don't think it would do a good task at OpenERP version upgrade.

For a "black box" upgrade you want to run a command on your server and let it do the magic for you.
That's a perfect job for scripts. And that's what OpenUpgrade is all about:
provide migration scripts for OpenERP modules.



My general mission, I feel myself dedicated to within the community, is usability and tearing down hurdles and inconveniences. Such proposal would perfectly fit. I think people are just inherently lazy, so if we could maximze convenience we could maximize contribution and therefore probably momentum and quality of the whole project.

As I mentioned before, I don't think Kettle would be a good choice here.
My suggestions on how you could contribute are:

* Write a good tutorial text to help people start with OpenUpgrade.
* Eventually, write a GUI program to wrap around the OpenUpgrade scripts, like what some programs do for bzr or git.


Keep up the enthusiasm and hope to see nice things from you soon :)

/DR


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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

David Arnold - El Alemán
Hola

thanks for your valuable opinions. Due to actual and urgent business needs and the support of PosBox in the various versions, I might be in the uncomfortable psotition to setup something on SaaS3 for my company for now and then will have to migrate to V8. Just waiting is not an option :( Growth (fortunatly) isn't linked to Odoo releases.. :)

So I got the idea, that UI hides the complexity of the task, which might be kind of a (highly reduced) common denominator. I understand therefore, that the broad user base of migration scripts is more comfortable on CLI operations. I also understand, that upgrading from one version to another (OpenUpgrade) is kind of a different task than a full-blown migration (Kettel, or other ETL-tools), although - however - there might be shared patterns which probably could/should be shared (to align some spaghetties :).

A sidenote on my background on this respect: I have worked as a client side business analyst in one of the biggest bank migration projects in Switzerland (ENTRIS). Well, what we where offered where poorly commented excel mapping tables. Imho that was an absolutely inapropriate tool choice and had severe impact on the collaborative momentum and on the agility of the project So maybe with some kettle, cloverETL japersoftETL or talend setup this could have been done more effectively, but probably there still is no such collaborative (let's call it "social") migration framework around.

Processing through my brain the evolving discussion, I couldrephrase, that "social migration framework" is maybe the core of my concern as kind of a defenition of a desired state (vision). This is clearly not a scope of Odoo nor OCA at all. This would be a clear case to leverage existing solutions (if any) from the different open source and best practice communities around the world.

I generally favor the idea to leverage the experience and the power of other communites and strategically fear a bit the tendency I perceive to incorporate much "hombrewn" functionality into Odoo. (eg. Askbot vs. Forum Module, BI vs. official Pentaho Integration, Docu Mgt vs. Alfresco, even database abstraction layers, etc.) I initially thought there would be an opportuinity to change the way Odoo upgrades and "outsource" this functionality to an expert open source community to free up OCA resources to focus on the ERP side. That might have been a bit naive.

I think we can leave this conversation therefore tagged as "Upgrade/Migration :: Stretegic Inputs" to remember when it will be time to make such decisions or change paradigms or whatever.. :) If what I said about "social migration framework" was a headache in our case, it is so in others, too, so if there's no solution yet, I'm confident, there will be (soon).

Speaking to the best of my knowledge, saludos

David


----------------------
David Arnold B.A. HSG
Gerente

+57 315 304 1368

​El Alemán S.A.S, Carrera 13 # 93 - 40 P4, Bogotá D.C, Colombia


2014-05-30 4:19 GMT-05:00 Florent THOMAS <[hidden email]>:
Hy Folks,

I'm using all the pentaho stuff with openerp :
- Pentaho Reports for OpenERP
- Pentaho Kettle for data integration

I've recently merged 4 companies coming from 4 different databases with no id export into a single openerp database with multi company environment.
I precise also that Kettle could also be launch through CLI. I design with the UI and deploy it on my server and launch it with cron.
I also precise that Kettle could launch any script even python, access to the openerp API thanks to the awesome project : https://github.com/DeBortoliWines/openerp-java-api

Frequently my coworkers are wanting to create kettle export instead of coding python. I always refuse this for many reasons :
- The closer you are from the core the better you are to debug
- The lower number of tools your working with the mighter your are when you're working on it
- The lower number of workflows you have to manage, the easier to disgest is your spaghetti dish !
- The "new fun" tool is not always the answer
- A UI oftently hide the complexity of a task

So maybe kettle could be a great help for cleaning datas before upgrading but I don't think that would be a great idea to use it for OpenUpgrade as a single answer.

Regards



Le 30/05/2014 10:45, Peter Langenberg a écrit :
+1 Daniel


2014-05-30 10:00 GMT+02:00 Daniel Reis <[hidden email]>:
David,

I've been using Pentaho Kettle with OpenERP for a few years now, so I'm
quite comfortable with what you can do with it.

About Pentaho Kettle, I read HERE[1] that it has a GRAPHICAL TOOL FOR ETL and can be used to update a database. This sounds for me like a hot canditate for OpenUpgrade, especially to improve usability and stuff

Since it's a graphical tool you can get the impression that it's "easier".
But as soon as you get to do more complex or extensive data handling, a GUI
starts being more a hurdle than a help.
And the transformations you design are not simpler nor more readable
compared to scripted code.


I imagine a VM (probably even using vagrant boxes or docker) that has a ready configured data migration server, where you can easily manipulate ETL and stuff WITH A KIND OF INTEGRATION OF PANTAHO KETTLE AND OPENUPGRADE-LOGIC, maintained and alimented with best practices from github, making it easy easy easy to set up and share migration pipelines for modules.

I think Kettle is an excellent tool than can aid you in a lot of data
integration tasks.
But I honestly don't think it would do a good task at OpenERP version upgrade.

For a "black box" upgrade you want to run a command on your server and let it do the magic for you.
That's a perfect job for scripts. And that's what OpenUpgrade is all about:
provide migration scripts for OpenERP modules.



My general mission, I feel myself dedicated to within the community, is usability and tearing down hurdles and inconveniences. Such proposal would perfectly fit. I think people are just inherently lazy, so if we could maximze convenience we could maximize contribution and therefore probably momentum and quality of the whole project.

As I mentioned before, I don't think Kettle would be a good choice here.
My suggestions on how you could contribute are:

* Write a good tutorial text to help people start with OpenUpgrade.
* Eventually, write a GUI program to wrap around the OpenUpgrade scripts, like what some programs do for bzr or git.


Keep up the enthusiasm and hope to see nice things from you soon :)

/DR


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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

David Arnold - El Alemán
Actually, I discovered something that NAN-TIC and Zikzakmedia invented...


I wonder if anyone has used it or any experience with it. 

If not: Oh my dear monolythic openerp, please open up! :)

Couriosity killed the cat...

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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Nhomar Hernández

2014-06-27 0:01 GMT-04:30 David Arnold - El Alemán <[hidden email]>:
I wonder if anyone has used it or any experience with it. 

Honestly: I prefer buy a licence, and use Odoo Services, they are REALLY great! ;-) but please don't kill me for that ;-)

If you have 2 or 3 users test it, it will not bring your company to bankrupt, use these tool may be yes :-)


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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Cédric Villemain
Le vendredi 27 juin 2014 00:57:40 Nhomar Hernández a écrit :
> 2014-06-27 0:01 GMT-04:30 David Arnold - El Alemán
<[hidden email]>:
> > I wonder if anyone has used it or any experience with it.
>
> Honestly: I prefer buy a licence, and use Odoo Services, they are
> REALLY great! ;-) but please don't kill me for that ;-)
>
> If you have 2 or 3 users test it, it will not bring your company to
> bankrupt, use these tool may be yes :-)

Trusting close source is not better than reading open source. Not being
able to propose an open source upgrade path is a shame and I welcome
such external tool.
--
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http://2ndQuadrant.fr/
PostgreSQL: Support 24x7 - Développement, Expertise et Formation
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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Nhomar Hernández

2014-06-27 2:02 GMT-04:30 Cédric Villemain <[hidden email]>:
Trusting close source is not better than reading open source.

Totally Agreed, but my point is not a matter of "Trust" and I think it is a deeper point, I think sometimes Trust is better than create fake quick expectations, that's my point only.

Everybody knows I don't trust even on my shadow in terms of source code, but sometimes encourage wrong paths technically speaking and hide half of the code trying to make users believe they are using opensource is wrong too!, then IMHO (may be I am wrong) say explicitly "It is closed" is better and transparent than say "I open source this but secretly I have the version that actually works".

If you read the code proposed by David is a tool Half opensourced not 100% opensourced because commercial hidden intentions and this is NOT good either.

I prefer a true that hurt that a lie that bring me to a lot of waste of time or worst a "half-truth".

BTW: If we have difference in this topic It is positive, that's the success of opensource too!.

Regards.

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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Federico Manuel Echeverri Choux

+1 @nhomar

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On Jun 27, 2014 1:51 AM, "Nhomar Hernández" <[hidden email]> wrote:

2014-06-27 2:02 GMT-04:30 Cédric Villemain <[hidden email]>:
Trusting close source is not better than reading open source.

Totally Agreed, but my point is not a matter of "Trust" and I think it is a deeper point, I think sometimes Trust is better than create fake quick expectations, that's my point only.

Everybody knows I don't trust even on my shadow in terms of source code, but sometimes encourage wrong paths technically speaking and hide half of the code trying to make users believe they are using opensource is wrong too!, then IMHO (may be I am wrong) say explicitly "It is closed" is better and transparent than say "I open source this but secretly I have the version that actually works".

If you read the code proposed by David is a tool Half opensourced not 100% opensourced because commercial hidden intentions and this is NOT good either.

I prefer a true that hurt that a lie that bring me to a lot of waste of time or worst a "half-truth".

BTW: If we have difference in this topic It is positive, that's the success of opensource too!.

Regards.

--
--------------------
Saludos Cordiales

Nhomar G. Hernandez M.
+58-414-4110269
Skype: nhomar00
Web-Blog: http://geronimo.com.ve
Servicios IT: http://vauxoo.com
Linux-Counter: 467724
Correos:
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
twitter @nhomar

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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

David Arnold - El Alemán
I'm not sure, If I got everything. AFAIK, KafkaDB-Project is APGL 3 and Kettel (PDI) ASL v2.
This might satisfy everyone in this updcoming discussion.

For exemple in the german goole community, someone asked for an open source upgrading path, as being part of the client requirements. Such requirements are usually hard coded, as they come from conviction.

In my case, odoo will be probably only be useful as a framwork in the future (not as ootb product), then OpenUpgrade are here to secure the investments, if I'm not missing something.

However the original point is /was to chellange established routines and propose new impulses. A hook to the future.

I don't know if the level of additional collaboration and "receipt-share" with a more user friendly tool on updating is not underestimated in the current path. I just have enough bits of information, to feel empowered to challange argumentatively, which IMHO always is a good thing. Although I bring in a high-level perspektive, it has it's very own (and important) rational of existens. Thus, a global altruistic decision equation could be somewhat like: 
If DELTA of Contribution Dynamics - SwitchingCosts > 0, then go

A less altruistic:
If BENEFITS of Delata of Contribution Dynamics - SwitchingCosts > 0, then go

​I urge: I can not make any estimate about neither DELTA nor BENEFITS, I just assume they are there...​


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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Cédric Villemain
In reply to this post by Nhomar Hernández
Le vendredi 27 juin 2014 02:20:46 Nhomar Hernández a écrit :
> If you read the code proposed by David is a tool Half opensourced not
> 100% opensourced because commercial hidden intentions and this is NOT
> good either.

Sorry I am not aware of that. I wasn't trying to advocate kafkaDB but
the interest in having an open source tool to upgrade OCB/OpenERP/Odoo.
It's sure it would be better to have the tool provided by
OCB/OpenERP/odoo instead of a third party.

> I prefer a true that hurt that a lie that bring me to a lot of waste
> of time or worst a "half-truth".
>
> BTW: If we have difference in this topic It is positive, that's the
> success of opensource too!.

Sure !
--
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Re: [Openerp-community] Suggestion, Idea for OpenerUpgrade project

Dominique Chabord
In reply to this post by Nhomar Hernández
2014-06-27 8:50 GMT+02:00 Nhomar Hernández <[hidden email]>:

>
>  I think sometimes Trust is better than create fake quick
> expectations, that's my point only.

Do you mean it is the case here with Nantic ?

>
> If you read the code proposed by David is a tool Half opensourced not 100%
> opensourced because commercial hidden intentions and this is NOT good
> either.

Have you verified this infomation ? Which part is not free software ?
If this code resulted from custom projects,as I was told, what are the
commercial hidden intentions ? I would go back to the author if you
confirm. We should now find many results of custom migrations,
shouldn't we ? but it seems few are published (yet ?).

>
> I prefer a true that hurt that a lie that bring me to a lot of waste of time
> or worst a "half-truth".

I personaly preffer true that doesn't hurt and I don't see why it
would be impossible.
;-)

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